Comments on: SE2R Feedback Revolutionizes How We Assess Learning Education on the Edge Thu, 14 Nov 2019 06:13:35 +0000 hourly 1 By: mskibbio Fri, 10 Oct 2014 23:49:13 +0000 I ask that they demonstrate some way they have taken it on themselves to tackle mastering a topic before they are retested. I do that as many students have learned to play the system- bail on a scheduled test in my class to maximize opportunity in another class or to find out what the emphasis will be on the test. Even with counseling on maximizing their own time, students still try to steal from peter to pay paul in managing their course loads and vie for college slots.

By: Mark Barnes Fri, 10 Oct 2014 21:41:15 +0000 Thanks for the feedback Cynthia. I taught for 20 years; now I write and present full time. I’m glad you give your students time to revisit prior learning and retake tests. In terms of feedback and time, I know this can be challenging. I’d advise you to join the Teachers Throwing Out Grades Facebook group, as many people there discuss how to maximize time, while providing ongoing feedback. Of course, my forthcoming book, Assessment 3.0, delves into this deeply. Thanks for reading and commenting. We love feedback here at B or I.
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By: Cynthia Fri, 10 Oct 2014 18:42:11 +0000 I also offer a retake for every test and will allow a student to redo any assignment they like. I do not require the “ticket” and more often than not, the score on the retake goes down. When I ask students what they did to prepare for the retake, the answer is usually nothing. I have few students who take advantage of either opportunity. I can’t say if this is because they have become conditioned by the system to accept whatever they are handed as a grade or if it is the population I work with or some other factor that I am not recognizing. I don’t know whether requiring the ticket is good or bad, but I can understand why a teacher may ask for that “ticket”.
Finally, I do wonder how you manage the constant stream of quality feedback that you are advocating. Are you still teaching today? What do you teach? That’s not to call your experience into question or anything. I guess I am just looking for how it relates to my own experience. (20 years teaching ELA and history in programs designed to help students who have gotten into trouble or fallen behind in their high school credits but still want to graduate.)

By: markbarnes19 Thu, 22 May 2014 19:47:44 +0000 bfuller181 markbarnes19  Nothing will magically solve all your problems. I could list many similar researchers with years in the classroom, but the ones I mentioned are most well known.

Not to self-promote, but I’d highly recommend that you read my book, Role Reversal: Achieving Uncommonly Excellent Results in the Student-Centered Classroom. It will amplify everything I’ve said so far about feedback and many other things that made me a better teacher. If it helps, I taught for 20 years in an urban public school (middle and high school).

By: bfuller181 Thu, 22 May 2014 19:07:01 +0000 markbarnes19 “When polled, 95% of my students say they learn better with narrative feedback and no grades.”

That’s impressive, but 95% of my students would vehemently disagree (and they would be wrong). My point is that I don’t trust the opinions of students unless I know the students personally. 

My issue with claims that “studies show…” assume that all students everywhere are the same. And yes, I understand statistical sampling, but the conclusions that are made are based on trends, not individuals. It doesn’t help that many of the educational researchers you noted have few, if any, years of K-12 classroom experience. It creates the feeling (and this is my own opinion) that I’m being told what works best by people who have no idea about what situation is like.

After 3 years spent transitioning away from points and traditional grades into a Standards-Based Grading scheme, my students are showing a marked *decline* in both achievement and engagement. I spend inordinate amounts of time giving timely feedback on formative assessments, and students don’t even look at them. Even now, in May, after 8 months of living with SBG, students still ask “what can I do to bring my grade up?”

My experience actually supports your hypothesis – my students don’t care about learning. The ones that care about anything care only about the grade. My issue is that working to move away from grades has actually made the problem worse. Students resent me and my system, if only because I’m the one teacher in the building who does’t play the game they’re used to playing. It’s possible that things would be different if the entire school made the transition, but I have no evidence of that. 

Don’t get me wrong, I love SBG and I generally agree with your philosophy on feedback, but I often feel frustrated when I’m told “Do X and all of your problems will magically disappear” even though I’ve done X, and Y, and Z, and I’m still not seeing results. There are other factors at play, and it’s naive to oversimplify the issue and presume that any system is best and can solve all problems.

By: markbarnes19 Thu, 22 May 2014 18:04:04 +0000 bfuller181  Many experts have studied the value of feedback over numbers, chief among them John Hattie, who has analyzed achievement studies of over 250 million students worldwide (Visible Learning). Hattie ranks more than 130 areas that impact yearly academic growth. Feedback is in the top10 and student self-grading (self-evaluation) is number 1. 

Robert Marzano, Grant Wiggins, Carol Ann Tomlinson, Dylan Wiliam and Thomas Guskey are a few more luminaries in education research who say that narrative feedback is most critical to learning.

My own research for my book, Role Reversal (ASCD, 2013) and my forthcoming book, Assessment 3.0 (Corwin, 2015), along with years of practical experience, using SE2R in the classroom with hundreds of students, is more than enough to demonstrate remarkable mastery learning. When polled, 95% of my students say they learn better with narrative feedback and no grades. 

All this being said, no educator will truly believe in this system, until they try it. There was a time when people believed the Internet was a trend that wouldn’t last. Thanks for continuing the conversation.

By: bfuller181 Thu, 22 May 2014 15:53:21 +0000 Is there empirical evidence of the effectiveness of this technique? 

“These are all valid inquiries, but they are not sufficient to continue with traditional grading.”

If these are valid critiques, do you have responses to them? If not, how can we be expected to accept the conclusion?

By: Mark Barnes Sun, 11 May 2014 15:46:35 +0000 Mike, while I love the fact that you are redirecting students to prior learning and giving them the opportunity to retake the test, I wonder why they need the ticket. I would hope that you might consider that this ticket is a control piece.

Why not simply allow the kids to re-take the test, trusting that they revisited prior learning?